00:09

Emily: Welcome back to the 4:18 Podcast. We are here for more with Dr. John Fuder. Doc, you are one of the key players who has known Martin from the beginning. That being said, how did you see Martin face resistance? 

Doc: I don’t know if I would say resistance, but that philosophy of ministry, of getting people to care for their own needs as opposed to being dependent on resources being given to them, I think there were some that didn’t want to care,

00:38

and do the work of providing for their own–would rather receive a handout. You know, the difference is–would work on digging a well and doing some of that rather than waiting for an organization and these are amazing that come and provide water, you know, kind of thing. And whatever illustration you want to use, the work of tilling the soil, preparing the land, growing vegetables, to care for their family. The consistent, tedious,

01:06

daily toil of that to care for their own, to care for livestock, to keep chickens. I think because of those who’d come before Martin that said, “We’re going to do this for you,” so to speak, and then we want to get you together. I remember him telling this story… An organization would come in and they would bring a lot of resources, food, clothing, whatever, and then they would take pictures, and everybody would be waving, and then they would go back to the states and say, hey, because you gave so generously,

01:35

we were able to do this for these poor Africans. And then they would run out of those resources and still be dependent, waiting for the next group to come. I saw Martin really pretty strongly push back at that. And so I think resistance would have come from those that did not want to take ownership for their own or other organizations that everybody knows everybody after a while…

01:59

that would feel as if you’re kind of critiquing the way that we do what we do, you know? In other words, you’re training people toward self-sufficiency. I don’t mean in a way that we don’t need Christ, but to care for our own needs, to where we can’t even come into this village anymore because you’ve got people caring for themselves rather than us trying to fix them, you know? So I would sense the philosophy of ministry that really, from the beginning, he sought to…

02:29

drive and develop kind of swims upstream from a historic sadly colonial mindset of people coming in to try to fix people. Now, provisions that were made historically, missions, hospitals, all that, I get it, man, schools, no doubt, like there’s the legacy of missions in Africa still from outside in is something. But yet, there was also a mindset that

02:57

sadly cultivated dependency. So like I’ll give you an example, you love this. My dear wife, she sews and stuff. And somehow, through somebody she started making dresses out of pillowcases, pillowcase dresses, and went to a fabric store here and was buying this material. And this lady asked him what she was doing. And she was like, I’m making all these pillowcases, dresses, I’m using this material. And we’re going to take these to Africa to you know,

03:27

so man, this lady heard that, she got some of her team, they cranked out hundreds of these dresses, you know. So our big idea was to take these to Africa. And Martin was basically like, you know what, it would be better to teach our women in Africa to sew and do it for themselves than for you guys to show up with all these dresses. And it was said lovely and I get it and he’s right. And I remember my wife’s eyes just going, you know, it was kind of like one of those little light bulb moments. Now we did,

03:56

I can’t remember, we did get a ton of dresses over there. He kind of caved into us a little bit, I think. So I remember a lot of us stuffed our suitcases with like dresses, like guys, save room for these. And they were just, they’re just adorable little things, you know, so you would show up at one of these schools and oh my goodness, the kids would come running and then the boys had their little pants, you know, and shirt and the girls had their dresses. But that was a one and done man because we heard him. Better to get people to…

04:25

donate a little bit to get some sewing machines and set up sewing classes for the women to care for their own. But see what that is, Emily, is it’s us feeling good about what we did. Oh, we did all this work and it was sincerely done. I get it. You know what? The answer was not for Americans to ship all this stuff over there, but rather for Africans to be taught how to do it themselves. So that does meet, certainly not in our lives, but resistance in some circles,

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where people would rather feel good about, look what I did to help Africans. God forbid that I should go and be in-country and teach them to sew, you know what I mean? It’s more comfortable, convenient to stay here, write a check, send stuff than it is to really enter into the pain of a place and a people. And to hear Martin articulate that, it would get quiet in the room because you get convicted by that. Now I get it, not everybody can go and you don’t have to go necessarily, but it’s a mindset that…

05:21

You know, there’s a phrase that says, in order to be for a people, you must be first with a people. And it’s the withness, if you will, that Martin displayed, and that I, over these years, try to help our Moody students understand that ministry at its best is always incarnational. You know, the Word became flesh, Christ Himself made His home in our midst. There was an incarnational framework in Martin from the jump, and we entered into that. And I think missions at its best is skin in the game,

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scars, so to speak. Oh, it’ll cost you. But at the end of the day, people see that in you, they see Christ in that, and they develop the wherewithal to model that themselves. Martin has done that beautifully. I get it, not perfect, none of us are. But that was a distinctive that, yeah, people would have thrown shade on that pushback, because it’s a lot easier to just, you know, do outside in, stay home, write a check, make something, send something, ship something,

06:18

than it is to really go oneself and enter into the pain of people and places. And I think that was from the beginning, what I think distinctively enabled PA to find the niche that it has now, you know, all these years, because I remember thinking, man, not a lot of people are trying to do what Martin’s trying to do, you know, he’s not the only one, but yeah, that was, I think what we all saw very, very much from the beginning.

06:43

Emily: Oh, I would love to be a fly on the wall for these moments. How have you seen Martin’s character develop through the years? 

Doc: Martin has, could we use the phrase, stayed on the wall. He has, he’s never wavered in a relentless pursuit of what he knows is God’s calling on his life. And I tip my hat to that because there are many, I think, that have started and maybe, in the midst of trying to see fruit

07:11

and impact and results and meet resistance. You know, he’s had many of his staff come and go, not in bad ways, but just, you know, maybe not always stay with him all these years for various reasons, do other things, go off to school, marry, whatever, you know. And so he’s had to keep forming teams, forming teams back home to do that. He did so much of this, as you know, Emily, with very little resources, very little resources. And he never said, okay, this isn’t working, I just don’t

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have enough to sustain it. He kept on even when I think he didn’t even know if those resources were gonna come. And then I think also, Em, he really was able to translate a vision into action, yes, but to scale it. Like I remember the times that he would have me come, I don’t know if it’s been three, four times, I could literally look back of the privilege of standing with him training pastors. And…

08:08

“Martin, what’s on your heart?” “Oh Doc, we gotta get into Zimbabwe. Oh Doc, it’s Rwanda. Oh Doc,” you know, and I was like, oh my goodness, it’s Uganda and what’s next? And I was like, wow. And every time it’s like, what’s up next? You know, who’s got next kind of thing, Martin. And it was just, he had a capacity to keep dreaming ahead of what he really even had the resources to do and just to take new ground always, you know? And I think there’s a uniqueness in that.

08:37

There are… some guys live in a world of vision and they don’t really know how to put legs on it. And I think Martin was able to put legs on vision and kind of as a both and, which is kind of rare. And to be able to articulate it with such eloquence and to anchor it in the scriptures and to doggedly keep pursuing it. It’s almost like, you know, scripture talks about the man of one thing, you know, David, Psalm 27, verse four, Paul, Philippians three.

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And you know, this one thing I do, that’s kind of been Martin’s calling. He’s given the best years of his life, but he’s got all these countries in mind, you know. He had vision. He kept at it, doggedly pursued it, stayed on the wall. He had the ability to scale it, even when he didn’t know where the resources were coming. And now, as resources are catching up a bit with that, he still does not put his feet up, so to speak. And I just deeply, deeply respect 

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the integrity of that. You know, there’s a lot of guys trying to do a lot of ministry all over the place. And I love the humility in Martin. I love the staying power, the faithfulness, the integrity. And again, doing it as a single man, I mean, he really has given his entire life to this vision. 

Emily: The beauty of Martin’s story is that his life laid down is because Jesus laid down his life for Martin.

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And this is true for all of us. “Greater love knows none than this to lay down one’s life for one’s friends,” and we see this in the life of Jesus, but we also get to see this in the life of Christ, alive in believers today. So I leave you with that for your week. Thank you so much for being here. God bless you!