Transcription:

Emily: Welcome to the 4:18 Podcast. This podcast shares the untold stories of what God is doing through the ministry of Possibilities Africa and testifies to the power of Jesus as described in Luke 4:18, which reads, “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.” 

I’m your host, Emily Frenzen, and today I have the joy of interviewing Gilbert Singh, the Senior Country Ministry Officer for Possibilities Africa in Kenya. Gilbert, thank you for taking the time to join us today. 

Gilbert: Thank you. Thank you. I’m glad to be here. 

Emily: Yeah. What’s happening in your area as we talk today? Tell us what’s going on in Nairobi, Kenya and what’s happening with Possibilities Africa. 

Gilbert: Our work is primarily in the communities. So, well, I stay in Nairobi, that is where our office is, but then we are monitoring the work of the rural villages. So I should say that from our conversation, really the work is progressing. The pastors and the churches and you know they are running with the vision. Yeah, running with the vision. Of course, currently we have had quite some journey with the flood, which in a way destabilized most of the things in a number of-part of several places in Kenya. So we actually spent the last three weeks or so following up with the pastors to get to know what is happening, just to monitor and to find out, are there those who are affected? And in what way can we be able to intervene? So that has been what you’ve been doing for the last three weeks.

Emily: Thanks for sharing. We’re praying for you and everyone who’s been impacted by the flooding. 

Gilbert: We are really grateful because the prediction was supposed to be worse. There was a cyclone that was supposed to hit the coastal region. But the Lord is good that it was not really destructive. The prediction was not good news but the Lord is good. He was able to save that impact. We could sense that there were prayers coming from Nebraska and some other parts of U.S. 

Emily: Yeah. So my next questions for you, Gilbert, are personal questions about you. So the first one is, what do you like to do in your free time? What do you do when you’re not working? 

Gilbert: I really love reading. You see, I even have one here, someone wrote it for me from the U.S. So I love reading a lot. But then number two, I love a very good conversation. In fact, I have in my Facebook something called “Conversation That Counts.” So, you know, like you just want to have conversation with people if I feel really, really I need to unwind, you know, just need to get some people who who are interesting to talk to. Just talk. So reading, socializing, those are the two major ones. 

Emily: And what do you do with your kids? 

Gilbert: I play a lot and I dance with them. My first one, my girl is a good dancer and my wife also is a very good dancer. But I don’t have the gifting and the talent for dancing, but I have some little moves here and there. So they’re very musical. So that’s what I do. But I also tell them stories. They like hearing me say stories and narratives, you know? So that’s what I do, share with them stories. We started some time back with my wife, that would take our children through the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. Because I can dramatize. So when I dramatize a scripture with them, so they are really, really excited. Right now, I know we are, they just now in the book of Job. I think yesterday was Job chapter seven. That’s what we do in terms of the spiritual formation of them. The social part, of course, what I say, a lot of dancing. A lot of dancing. And of course, once in a while, go for pizza somewhere outside. Yes, pizza. Or visit friend. Again, you know.

I say those things because they are usually excited about visiting people. They usually are excited about when in fact, when we have friends visiting us and they usually ask whether they have children. Do they have children? You know so that they can be able to plan again because they are at a formative age and very energetic and etc. That’s why we do all those many things. 

Emily: So many fun things. What is your favorite food?

Gilbert: Chapati. Chapati is a starch. Maybe chapati and chicken. Well fried or stewed chicken and chapati would be good. I can eat chapati always. Every day. 

Emily: Every day and never get tired of it? 

Gilbert: Yes. I know many people say the Ugali is, in Africa, Ugali is, but really I don’t think I am into Ugali at all; chapati. Maybe because chapati was a luxurious food, you know, when we were growing up, was like, chapati was supposed to be for December and Christmas. Maybe just maybe that could be the reason, but I love chapati. 

Emily: That makes sense for sure. Yeah. Tell us what your favorite worship song is. 

Gilbert: Ah, I think, do I have a favorite one? I think… they are seasoned. Like right now, the current song that I was been singing was, you know, “We know we will never settle for less. We know that there’s more that found in you,” you know? “And we will never settle for less. We know there’s more that’s found in you.” So that has been the song that I’ve been singing.

The other one is which one? Maybe a hymn which I love singing a lot in most cases. Blessed Assurance. This is my story. You know that that that’s that is a hymn I can sing over and over and over. “And this is my story. This is my song.” And so those one.

But in terms of favorites, I think the very latest, it comes the next. But I think the hymn, Blessed Assurance, has stayed over time. That one has been there for many, many years. I think when you even do the Bibles, we usually have a devotion in the office as a staff. And I think I have asked them to sing that hymn more than, I mean, many times.

Emily: That’s one of my favorites too. That one gets me every time. 

Gilbert: Wow. Yeah. That’s where we connect there. 

Emily: Yes! Blessed assurance. That’s great. Where did you grow up, Gilbert? 

Gilbert: A place called Keringet in Nakuru County. That is in a rural, rural setup. 

Emily: In Kenya? 

Gilbert: In Kenya, yes.

Emily: How many siblings did you grow up with?

Gilbert: Six. But two passed on when they were very young. The two passed on, I think passed when they were maybe six months or six to eight months there. But grew up with my-I’m the second born. My sister, elder is a sister, then I am the second born, then my brother, and then the fourth born is a sister. So two boys, two guys that are alive. 

Many people would think that I’m the first born because my sister stayed with my grandma a lot. So we were staying with my mom. So by default, I was a firstborn. 

Emily: How did the way that you were raised growing up prepare you for your work with Possibilities Africa? 

Gilbert: You know, we create capacity for rural churches to do holistic ministry. So the main thing is rural communities that need to be reached because many reasons, of course, you know, that most of the folks from the rural are separated from opportunities, etc. All those things that are really found within an urban setting. And so being, come, having come from a rural community, it created in me an understanding of the context there. OK, so I grew up there up to my high school level. 

In high school level, I went to a town called Nakuru which is a bit urban because that is where the high school was then now I came to Nairobi which is a city, and then went to a church in the city is a city church a well-known church called Christ is the Answer. So now, this exposed me to two worlds: the urban setting and the rural setting where I grew up. And of course, I appreciate the deficiency of several things within the context of the home. There are many things that are not there in an urban setup, okay? 

Then of course grew up in a rural church, which I also saw how they organized themselves, organized the ministry, organized everything. And then in an urban church, which is very well done. I mean, everything to the military precision, they are well-ordered services and et cetera. Now, Possibilities Africa provided me the opportunity to converge these two worlds, the world, these two worlds together. The urban context where people are exposed to opportunities, you know, they are knowledgeable, they have, you know, all these things. And the rural setting, which really someone who would travel from the city to the rural, he feels like he’s a savior. You know, they’re really celebrated. You know, he looked like—if a pastor would come from the rural to the city to the rural, most of the rural folks or ministries see him as anointed. You know, he knows many things. 

So that upbringing, I believe gave me the entry into the heart of a pastor because then when I speak to the pastors in the rural, I don’t speak as a stranger. I speak as one who has been and knows where they are. But number two, we also deal with pastors who are really all people, members of the local who are struggling in so many ways in economic and etc. Which again my story is the same, you know, it, you know, it has the same, same converge. 

You know, when you begin to talk from that place, I think it prepares, it really in God’s wisdom. All these things, God put them together to produce something so beautiful in engaging them, these servants of God and rural pastors and communities with the message that we carry as Possibilities Africa.

Emily: It’s amazing. Tell us what you do in your job daily. 

Gilbert: So my job really entails engaging with the pastors. Our primary clients are the pastors. So if I may use the computer language, I think interfacing. I know interfacing is a technical term. It’s almost like interfacing with the pastors and the organization, the ministry. I am nurturing the vision of Possibilities Africa in the pastors. That’s really what I do. So a daily engagement with the pastors is to nurture the measure, the vision with the pastor. And in other words, my engagement daily with the pastors is to see how they appreciate what we teach in the context of where they’re coming from and match the two so that then there’s a value addition terms of what we what we give. So I mean, of course, I have to talk, I talk a lot about the phone. I, I took a look with the pastors, I think, I think among those who use a lot of airtime, you know, because then you have to fellowship and do that, you visit the pastors on that. So that that really my daily, so so hearing the pastor hearing what they are doing. And synthesizing what it is that is happening, capturing well, and then presenting them to the organization, to the people who are above us and above me, processing all those particular things, giving the feedback to the pastor on what they need to do. Because when they share information, then we need to give them feedback because the information really is in line to what we have taught them.

So you hear the pastor, you hear the vision of the organization, you translate. So I am a middleman. You go like this, you know. And the main thing, eyeballing, what I am eyeballing or putting my eye on is a vision and the mission that we want to nurture among the pastors. 

Emily: How much time in a month do you spend traveling to visit pastors?

Gilbert: Our program is structured in such a way that the pastors are the ones that implement the work. This is therefore to say that you do not want to keep engaging them continually on the ground. You want to give them the opportunity to implement. So the program is structured in such a way that we have provided the pastors a training. They are given the challenge to go and roll it out. They go and roll it out in the way that they think best. And then, after they’ve rolled out, after we finish those modular training, that is when now we visit them. So we spend my time talking and calling, and that’s a big job. 

Then now we organize periodically, maybe, you know, sometimes quarterly, where then we go and visit those particular pastors to get to see what they are doing. The reason why we do that is that we want them to see that it is not the organization that is implementing whatever they are doing. We want them to own it. Otherwise, we will have pitched the the camp on the community so that then we can ensure it happens.

But the success of our work is that when the pastor is the one that is running with it, is the one that is running with it, so therefore, they are seasoned that then we will travel a lot. They are seasoned that we don’t travel. 

So for example, not necessarily that I can travel this month, I can take the whole month without traveling, but there are particular times that then it is said that we need to go and check on the pastors. Yeah. So, that is the model that we have. Sometimes there is, when we get information from the pastors and part of the feedback will require our presence on the ground or part of our feedback is to do a linkages and network and then of course we need them to take those people to go and we then go. But the program has a particular threshold that we need to be met for the, for the pastor to be visited. 

But we do a lot of following up, calling, at least every month, every day of the week. There has to be one contact engagement with the pastors. 

Emily: Yeah, because you have so many pastors you reach. I know that you’re connected to many. 

Gilbert: There’s so many pastors. 

Emily: Do you know how many that you reach out to specifically? I know that there’s people in your role in different countries, but in Kenya, how many pastors do you have contact with?

Gilbert: So we have 110, the new pastors. I think the other one should be around 300 plus. I need to check. I need to confirm that particular number. So we have a number of us on the staff. We have three staff. So we each are located, a particular number of the pastors that they need to be able to meet every week, every month. In fact, we have a minimum of 50 pastors per month that you need to call. 

Emily: So do you ever stop talking to pastors at a certain point or as long as they’re part of Possibilities Africa? Like, once they complete training, do you keep talking to them or is it through the training program that you talk to them? 

Gilbert: So what you do is that you see again, the focus of what our work, our training, is that the pastor needs to run with it. So from the very beginning, we want to socialize the pastor to see it, not as the organization work, but as his work. That is one. But two, we also train the pastor to appreciate that it is his proactiveness. It is his own proactiveness that really, we are a friend. That said, there is a friend called Possibilities Africa whom God has given a mandate for such a time as this to be a blessing to them, you know, to hold their hands but they don’t just hold their hands because they are hands to be held, you know, they hold their hands because there is a need. There is some pastors who are seeing the value of what he did. 

So we usually have a time that we have an active engagement of the pastor in our in our framework. This is when number one, we are doing sensitization of the vision. When you’re doing sensitization in terms of recruitment, that primarily is us because at that level, we are doing marketing. They don’t know us, so we need to tell them. Then after that, when we’ve done the, you know, the modular training, which laid the foundation and programmatic training that then, and help them to know how to implement some of the core, key areas, key programmatic areas that we do. And then, but in every stage, there are things that the pastor needs to do. At every stage, I think that he needs to do. 

Now, if the pastor does not do that one, it’s already a red card or a yellow card that the pastor, we give them a yellow card. And then we give them a red card just to use the football terms. In other words, then the invitation to talk to the pastor is dependent on the activity or the commitment of the pastor to do areas or to implement things that we have trained them on. We hold this philosophy that the one who has, who has not, I think I told even what he has shall be taken away.

So the one who has shall be added more. So that’s when they bring us a place where an active engagement of particular season, and then we reduce our engagement with the pastor, who are active, and then of course then give them an open door where they themselves reach out to the organization because we have introduced a vision, we’ve introduced an agenda, a transformative agenda to them. 

Now, as they implement those agendas, they will definitely keep referring. So keep calling and say, okay, I’m here. So that’s why, that’s how we approach in terms of our conversation with pastors. If a pastor is not progressing, we don’t necessarily, of course, take the pastor who has not either bought into what you are saying or has had some other interest. But our engagement with the pastor is not perpetual forever. I mean, it never stops somewhere when the pastor has an open door to call us and at the time that they will see that we can be a blessing to them. 

It’s like, I said, it looks like, you know the way you give birth to a child, you, you know, when they’re young, you really depend, they’re dependent on you. So you must really hold them, you feed them. Then at level, you begin to walk. They’re still under your home, you know, you still are watching, and then they reach a place where you can allow them to stay away from, to come at home at past six but then they reach a place where you have to tell them you have to leave my house now and go and stay somewhere you know so that that’s almost a nurturing process that we do when you have already released your son to go and he has his own house, you as a father you don’t keep calling, you know. You know you now you ask him, you can call your father when you think his wisdom is necessary that you make it. That is more or less how I can analogize our engagement with the pastors. 

Emily: Yeah, that analogy is so good. I love that. Why does the training matter? When pastors come into this, when they start with you, what are some theological gaps that you see in pastors? 

Gilbert: So first, you see, the pastors that we bring on board are already practitioners. They are already in the ministry. You know? In fact, the criteria of our recruitment require that the pastor, the person should be a pastor in charge of a local church with a minimum of 25 members. So that already tells you there is a very, there are theological formations that have already taken place in that particular pastor. And paint some of the theological, of course, theological persuasion and basis may be informed by ignorance of the Word of God, etc., and many other things. But anyway, they have influence in the community. Now, as now you begin to work with them, and even at the initial stages of modular training, and some of those theological misconceptions that they have are beginning to be addressed. In fact, from the very beginning of our trainings, the pastors begin to appreciate that there is a particular knowledge that is needed, you know, a knowledge gap. 

You know, Emily, to have someone who has been a pastor for many years being told that you have been ignorant in this path, it is not easy. You know, how could you tell me I did know it and I’ve been preaching for 40 years? But from the very beginning, as you begin to teach, because again, our teaching is not outside the Bible. So it’s from the Bible, it’s a scripture. We are saying holistic is a biblical message. 

Now, as they listen, the very first initial stages, they are those theological assumption that are already being addressed. And that one you can say, in fact after the first session you hear, a pastor, “Hey, I didn’t know this. How come I’ve been reading the Bible all the time? This is almost like it’s new.” 

Okay, so that again becomes step by step of them adjusting their lenses, adjusting their perspective of things. One of the things I will really encounter among the pastors, I think I mentioned this some time back with you, is that when you bring pastors from different denominations, because of theological differences, there’s a sense in which they will want to be very careful, not willing to gel. But now at that particular moment, you know, we begin to address the reason for those divisions biblically, just pointing out those doctrinal differences, not to change their doctrine, but just to say you need to be very careful, lest some of these things then hinder you from experiencing the fullness of God. Because if your doctrine hinders you from partnering with another pastor, you deny yourself the blessings of that other man of God. You deny yourself the gifting and the capacities that God has given to us as a community. So that becomes a conversation that helps the pastor to say, oh, if I see myself as spiritually mature, Paul tells us those who are spiritually mature should be willing to come low to those who are immature and then work with them up.

So again, because any person with doctrinal persuasion believes that his doctrines are right, the other ones are not really right. All right. So, and they will assume they are the one more mature, the other one is not really mature, you know, those assumptions. So again, in our conversation, those things are addressed in a very wise, strategic way without introducing battles and wars with that denomination because we are not there to change denomination beliefs and structure. What we are advancing is a vision, an agenda that is supposed to better and transform the community. You get it? So now, so that is why then when we encounter some of those things we change and they are, they have been those instances where we are there to really ask the pastors and I think I don’t know if I shared you. I

I remember one pastor from Tanzania who actually said, “I cannot, how do we stay with, how can we work with these pastors who don’t have the Holy Spirit? They are not truly, truly born again, you know, and they are calling pastors.” And then I remember telling him, “Okay, I hear you, but what does that mean to you? It means that you know the truth. They don’t know the truth. What is the most responsible way to do? You work with those who don’t know the truth so that you can have the truth. You know, it just go to their level and then raise them.” 

And that man was so transformed with that concept. And another forum, he was the one that was now challenging the people who was holding the same view. You know, they’re like, no, no, no, we should have to those of us who are, you know. So again, those are the things that are addressed. And then the other thing, of course, is when the pastor asked the question directly, you know, the pastors were a specific question, doctrinal question, and then they are able to ask, so what about this?

So I have been able to meet with those instances a lot where a pastor asks specific questions that are doctrinal. Now, fortunately, of course, by the grace of God, at least God took us through a training also so that we are able to be theologically. So whichever the question may come, then we are able then to redirect the pastors into a particular sound understanding of the scripture.

And what we say, we uphold the scripture, this is the one that we elevate. We do not want to elevate our church doctrine, but we want to elevate the scripture because this is where the unifying factor, this is the unifying factor for the pastors in our work. 

Emily: I have so many questions. I do want to, I’m going to get my Bible out because I have a scripture that came to mind. I love this passage from Philippians 2 and it talks about the humility of Jesus and it’s like, okay, this is the son of God and he’s humble and bends low. But even in the beginning of Genesis, I remember doing a Bible study once on Genesis, and from the beginning, God bends low to make man from dust. But then, you know, if Jesus is the picture of this God who bends low to create us and he’s God in human form, Philippians 2, I think, has a really good description of who that Jesus is. And verse 5, it says, “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had, though He was God. He did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, He gave up His divine privileges. He took the humble position of a slave, and He was born as a human being. When He appeared in human form, He humbled Himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” 

I’m curious what you think you would describe humility as. Maybe you already described it as that bending low, but what does humility look like for us as believers? Gilbert, what are your thoughts?

Gilbert: I think humility is having the power to act in a particular way, but choosing not to use that power in any way that can be very destructive. It is considering the other person better than yourself. This is what actually the Philippians say, consider, you know, have this mind that was in Christ. Actually, chapter one is saying, make my joy, “Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the spirit, if there is any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same, maintaining the same love, united in the spirit intent on one purpose, do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind, regard one another as more important than yourself.”

That’s humility, saying, I will give you preference. I give you preference over me. I don’t have to be the first. I don’t have to be the one who is in front. You can go ahead of me. Jesus is God. But he himself didn’t consider equality to be something to fight for. He did not. I mean, you wouldn’t find Jesus telling people, “Do you know who I am?” You know, those things, boasting and all. He humbled himself and he became human. And the humility of Jesus is that, though God, though mighty, though divine, though powerful, that he can really change things, but he chose not to manifest that power before men who may not handle that power. Even the way he teaches the disciples, he worked with them gradually, slowly.

You know, and you actually you get a feeling that at one time you feel is a bit frustrated that these people are not getting it. They’re not understanding, but he’s not rushing them. Say that, let me just continue working with you, you know, continue teaching, performing miracles, hoping that they get, you know, all these things. And at one time he’s asking them, who do people say that I am, you know, hoping that, you know, what do you say that I am?

And then he say, you know, he’s everything. And, and when Peter said, “You are the Christ,” he’s so excited. So I go, oh you’ve gotten it, gotten it. But you see, he could have forced them. He could have changed their mental framework because he’s God and just understand or do some, something so out of this world, but the humility of Jesus really, when it comes to the context of churches and the ministry and dealing, with pastors and other people, is the willingness to not flaunt yourself, the willingness to say I may know many things, but I don’t know everything. I may know many things, but I don’t know everything. That the heart of a student, you know, the heart of a student, even the least of these can teach me. That’s humility. The ability to say the least of them all can still tell me what, you know, what, you know, that, that, that I would say is humility. 

You know, I learned something when I was in school that Christianity is, is incarnational in theology, and in methodology is incarnational. Meaning it has to enter into where the people are, you know, the, it has to walk with the least of them. You know, you go to where they are, but you can’t go. It doesn’t say that you do what the people are doing, but just say, don’t be aloof out there. You need to be close to them, enter into their space, incarnate yourself there, in a picture, and model Christ. Then you begin to see change from that place. And that, I think, is what we actually, as an organization, we do—how do you incarnate yourself? So if you sense that you know many things, the wisdom is if you are willing, count the level of those who are not wise according to what you think, and then elevate their value and dignity, the level that you think ought to be. I mean, that is a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I think that would be the humility.

Emily: And that’s a wrap for part one with Gilbert. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and share with someone you know who may be blessed by this episode or who may be interested in partnering with Possibilities Africa. If you are interested in partnering with Possibilities Africa, be sure to head to usa.possibilitiesafrica.org to learn more. Until next time, God bless.